Sorry. I don't trust Russian news. Say what you like about the American media, but our media doesn't get murdered by our government. Also, nice try comparing Iraq to Georgia, but Iraq under Saddam had a pretty well established history of aggression and had one of the largest militaries in the world when it invaded Kuwait. It is not a comparable situation.

As for dishonesty, we know that Russia signed a ceasefire and violated it already.

had one of the largest militaries in the world when it invaded Kuwait.

OMGWTFROFL?!

Kenn,

Do cue me as to when I start playing the Russian national anthem on the violin here....

Granting that any accounting of this nasty opening adventure in a much larger conflict that seeks to give sainthood to Sir Vladimir of the Holy Order of the KGB (blackbelt, first class) will differ considerably from reality, or from Dave Nalles's attempt to give sainthood to Sir Mikhail of the Order of St. George (Gruzian-American division), you seem to have missed quite a lot here.

Just go to my articles and save yourself a lot of time.

Oh, by the way, can you provide us borders for the Kingdom of Georgia that was annexed by the Russian Empire, and how the land lay then? Just curious....

I suggest that from your perch in Zambia, you need better binoculars to see the action....

As the Russians reacted to the aggression of the Georgians by coming to the aid of the defenseless South Ossetians

One of the things which every observer agrees on and which you can see video of all over the place is that the Russian army is standing by while accompanying S. Ossetian forces commit attrocity after attrocity, ethnically cleansing almost 20,000 people, plundering, burning entire villages. This is all documented.

Are you getting your news from TASS?

Dave

Don't forget people the only "facts" you know are "facts" given to you by the media. Unless you are living in the middle of the action you don't nor will you ever know the complete story. Please let others with a different view share it and perhaps we may someday get a "complete" story of whats really going on in this world.

What I get from this writer is that we shouldn't believe the US news media, but we should believe what he's hearing from the Russian news media...

...but I'm sure the view of Georgia is so much better from AFRICA than it is from over here!

NU??

Kenn, I'm been waiting for hours to be cued to start playing the Russian national anthem on the violin! And my arm is beginning to hurt, not to mention my cheek, which is sore from pressing into the violin;
and where is the link to that map of the Kingdom of Georgia?

I do want to thank folks for reading my article. I appreciate the lively debate that usually occurs over the issues. I am not pro Putin or pro Russia. I do side spiritually with people who yearn to be free - like the South Ossetians. I don't know if the Russians will give them their freedom, but I do know that Saakashvili won't. Furthermore lets remember that Saakashvili's army attacked a de facto independent country.

Living abroad I have received I believe more balanced newscasts of the events in the crisis. I get CNN, BBC, Russia Today, Sky News and Al Jazeera. By the way, most journalists on Al Jazeera are westerners, not Muslim anti-American fanatics. The coverage has ranged from CNN-pro-American to Russia Today obviously pro-Russian and everything in between.

If we continue to blindly believe that what the U.S. media always says is the truth then we are doomed as a people. I did say always. Obviously they do tell the truth also as well. But in my view the coverage of this conflict by the U.S. media has been one-sided.

So, Tycoon, Dave and Andy, the American MSM are a lying bunch of groundhog turds in regard to their coverage of the US presidential election, but magically grow steel balls of journalistic integrity when it comes to reporting on Georgia? Is that about right?

I never said that...what I said was, we shouldn't believe our MSM but we should believe what the writer is getting from the Russian MSM?

Care to point out to me where I said anything like what you suggest I said Doc???

I don't appreciate words being put in my mouth, or my fingers as the case may be...

On the other hand...groundhog turds is a pretty apt description of the American MSM, or MSM in general....I think you need to add old, dried up, to make it a really good description though....

So if you shouldn't believe the American MSM and you shouldn't believe the Russian MSM, I guess the next logical question is to ask where the hell are you getting your facts about this conflict?

Seriously. I want to know.

I don't have any facts...only what I read from our liars and their liars...I'm trying to figure that one out myself!

I would imagine, finding a source on the ground would be the best way...but I haven't seen many of those reports either and the ones I have seen go both ways also...

I would imagine, finding a source on the ground would be the best way...but I haven't seen many of those reports either and the ones I have seen go both ways also...

And right there, Andy, you have put your finger on it. The truth, as almost always, is somewhere in between the two versions.

You got caught in the crossfire earlier, Andy, simply because you chimed in on the debate. I think Dave in particular needs to be taken with a pinch of salt on this issue, since he's been among those regularly accusing the media of bias or dishonesty in relation to the election yet is relying heavily on those very same sources for his interpretation of events in the Caucasus.

I'm just a bit fed up with the general view on BC that it's OK for Americans to be wrong in disputes with other Americans, but never in disputes with foreigners.

Sorry Jordan, but Iraq did have one of the largest militaries in the world at the time they invaded Kuwait. It’s a fact.

As for the American MSM, I don't think they do that bad of a job, you just need to watch them with a filter. When Chris Mathews is drooling all over Obama's feet, it would be prudent to not take him too seriously when he says something in his favor. However, he doesn't drool all over Bush's feet, so if he takes the president’s side against Russia, I would be much more likely to listen to him and believe what he is saying.

Thank you, Kenn, for the other side. Having many friends from other countries, I KNOW how the media distorts. We are FED information to manipulate out thinking...and most Americans simply believe because we have been taught to trust our leaders, though they disappoint us time and time again. Look how many people are STILL convinced that Saadam had something to do with 911, etc. Why? Because that's what our "GREAT" president and his generals tell us (over and over again!) Brainwashing...pure and simple. My family goes back generations and I am grateful to have been born in the USA rather than some of the other wretched countries around the world, but I take everything I hear on the news with a huge grain of salt.

I found it...

"In the late 1980s, Iraq had the world's third largest army," said John Thompson, a former Canadian army officer who heads the MacKenzie Institute, a Toronto-based think tank which studies global conflict.

In 1991, Iraq had an army of more than a million men and 5,550 tanks.

The army has shrunk to 375,000 today, with just 2,200 tanks.

That was from 2002. So it's interesting that in about a decade, give or take, Iraq lost well over 600,000 troops. Any word on how that happened?

It is comforting to learn Russia is honoring her obligations under the cease fire agreement in Georgia to the extent that one would have expected her to do: hardly at all. Perhaps if Secretary Rice can't convince Russia to get on the ball, President Obama will be able to deal with her forcefully, and get her to think about doing so whenever and if she wishes to.

Dan

NPR had a pretty good discussion today at noon on "Talk Of The Nation" between Strobe Talbott and Ted Koppel. I only heard a couple minutes of it. Here's the URL for the whole thing:

Radio cast

Media said: "When Chris Mathews is drooling all over Obama's feet, it would be prudent to not take him too seriously when he says something in his favor. However, he doesn't drool all over Bush's feet, so if he takes the president's side against Russia, I would be much more likely to listen to him and believe what he is saying."

I think this contrarian logic is pretty weak.

#18 -- Dan Miller

Interesting news from your link. Here is something that comes from it.

An Associated Press cameraman was slightly injured outside Gori after four men in camouflage, possibly from an Ossetian militia, pulled up in a car and told him to stop filming.

When the cameraman resisted, the driver produced a pistol and started shooting at the ground. The cameraman, who sustained light ricochet wounds to his legs, handed over the cassette.

The foreign minister of staunchly neutral Sweden, Carl Bildt, publicly drew an analogy between Prime Minister Vladimir Putin's justification for dismembering Georgia to protect Russian citizens in South Ossetia, and Adolf Hitler's tactics vis-a-vis Czechoslovakia to "free" ethnic Germans in the Sudetenland.

Former U.S. national security adviser Zbigniew Brzezinski found another analogy "even more ominous": Yosif Stalin's move against Finland, "subverting by use of force the sovereignty of a small democratic neighbor. In effect, morally and strategically, Georgia is the Finland of our day. If Georgia is subverted, not only will the West be cut off from the Caspian Sea and Central Asia. We can logically anticipate that Putin, if not resisted, will use the same tactics toward Ukraine. Putin has already made public threats against Ukraine."

You got caught in the crossfire earlier, Andy, simply because you chimed in on the debate. I think Dave in particular needs to be taken with a pinch of salt on this issue, since he's been among those regularly accusing the media of bias or dishonesty in relation to the election yet is relying heavily on those very same sources for his interpretation of events in the Caucasus.

Just to correct a mistaken impression here, I have not particularly singled out the US MSM for criticism on their election coverage in the past, and I have also not used them as sources in the two articles I wrote on the Georgia situation. I've worked mainly from sources outside of the US and outside of the normal media structure.

When I first started writing about Georgia the US media was pretty much repeating what they were getting from Tass and taking the Russian side. They changed their tune and began being less pro-russian as the situation went on, though I'm not sure why. Possibly having their reporters shot at by Russian allied Ossetians had something to do with it.

It looks very much at this point like Russia's efforts to control public perception of their actions in Georgia have backfired on them. How deliberate and manipulated the whole situation was became impossible for the media to ignore and Russia's lies just couldn't be allowed to stand. Too much was at stake for the media to do anything but report relatively honestly, lest they be exposed.

To me one small thing is the most telling part of all of this and shows exactly what was really going on. Russian hackers began attacking the Georgian internet more than a week before Georgian forces moved into S. Ossetia, essentially cutting Georgia off from any conline contact with the rest of the world. If Russia was just defending the Ossetians from the Georgians, why did they shut down the Georgian internet days before the crisis even started?

Dave

"Please let others with a different view share it and perhaps we may someday get a "complete" story of whats really going on in this world."

Tell that to Milosovich.

"I suggest that from your perch in Zambia, you need better binoculars to see the action...."

"...but I'm sure the view of Georgia is so much better from AFRICA than it is from over here!"

I just came in to visit.. haven't been here for awhile and this piece's headline caught my attention.

In reading through the comments, the above two stuck way out because as a Jamaican I also have and use access to several non-US news sources to complement US cable news. This seems a great way to get a more balanced view of world events from all pespectives.

The tone of the comments highlighted above caught my attention though... Is there something inherently superior in the US perspective that allows a better viewpoint of this Georgia Russia conflict than what a third world, African viewpoint can offer? I'm sure it was not intentional but the 'perch' and the 'AFRICA' could leave that impression...

Angela - try reading the entire comment and not just picking one line out of it that you don't like. The entire comment made mention of US MSM and Russian MSM...but you chose to just pick out the one sentence. The writer of this piece tells us basically that we should trust his news sources as gospel and that what we hear here in America is all lies. I don't buy it.

It's as if someone thinks I would ever believe news out of Russia. They never have told the truth and they probably never will. As hosed up as the US MSM is, it's not controlled by the govt.

And as sure as you are that it wasn't, I'm here to tell you it WAS intentional. Glad I got your attention.

Milosovich's side of the story will never be heard. Was he (1) overtly attacking an old ethnic enemy or (2) trying to stem the tide of drug trafficing (and the accompanying crime syndicates) into Europe to prevent a buildup of armed aggression to his country and its interests?

I've heard both, but the later never really came out in the press, and was just hinted at from a few sources. Which was it?

Milosovich get hauled into an international court, tries to present his country and the case for his actions and dies in his jail cell from an apparent heart condition.

Any answers? How's that for a U.S. perspective?

I guess one could ponder similiar points of contention in the case of Stalin, Mao, and Hitler, Pol Pot, Ho Chi Minh... the list is endless. Which leads me to believe that history IS always written by the victors.

I am sure of one fact, that the press works for advertizing dollars and will sensationalize when needed to sell copy.

...Stalin, Mao, and Hitler, Pol Pot, Ho Chi Minh... the list is endless. Which leads me to believe that history IS always written by the victors.

Who's the victor in Georgia, Condor?

Angela,

Is there something inherently superior in the US perspective that allows a better viewpoint of this Georgia Russia conflict than what a third world, African viewpoint can offer?

Don't know if you are still around to read this but from my mountain roost in Samaria (in Israel), I rely not on the American or European news but on reports filtering in here from Russian Jews and from Georgian Jews, and on reports leaked by the Mossad, Israel's espionage agency. Where the MSM have backed up these reports, I've used them. Otherwise, I ignore the talking heads and the fools, and L-rd knows there are enough of them blabbing their mouths off.

So, it's not an issue of which "world" you come from, Angela. Kenn's perch in Zambia does not afford him the view o the perspective that I have. So, he needs a pair of binoculars. I don't.

Andy,

I didn't read the piece that way. But maybe that's because I fill my pail of sea salt daily to help me navigate the worldwide outpourings of both media and governments... ;-)

I suppose the essential question is whether the media helps the public to hold governments accountable by an insistent deep drilling down into the issues?

I watched an interview of Konstantin Kosachev, Russian Parliamentary member, this past Sunday.

After discussing whether Russia would honour its agreement and leave Russia the following day, the interviewer again tried to get a solid yes/no answer.

Kossachev responded by saying something to the effect that just as the US cannot say when it will leave Iraq, Russia cannot say when it will leave either.

For the life of me, I could not and still cannot understand how the interviewer left that stone unturned. Wasn't he interested in the connection, even if it was brought up mainly to distract and evade the question?

Wouldn't viewers be interested in that connection from a Russian perspective in the context of the US trying to figure how to deal with this latest Russian show of 'stay out of my backyard/business'?

Perhaps I'm wrong, but I've felt for a few decades that both the MSM and individual governments are instruments of power bases that have long mastered the manipulation of worldwide public opinion and the organisation of public resources to suit their ends.

In this context, political and other blogs, websites such as blogcritics and some of the more independent, boat-rocking members of the MSM are critical in enabling public awareness and giving voice to public opinion.

We are increasingly able to get live feedback from citizen journalists in international crises. I feel the more we can parse between different MSM sources and these individual sources of information, the more we can find the middle road that more directly reflects the varied perspectives/truths of any matter.

Ruvy,

Still here... ;-)

The more sources the better. I particularly like yours! ;-)

Question re "Where the MSM have backed up these reports, I've used them."

On average, how long does it take for MSM to back up reports when they do? Just my curiousity, nothing to do with this discussion...

On average, how long does it take for MSM to back up reports when they do? Just my curiosity, nothing to do with this discussion...

Angela,

That will depend on the nature of the report and who benefits from which story. It's a very individual thing.

Where in Jamaica do your write from?

I just want to point out that, depending on the level of subscription paid for by the cable or satellite (as in my case) subscriber, ALL broadcast (cable or over-the-air) news outlets from anywhere in the world, are available everywhere in the world, including the US, unless suppressed/censored by authorities in specific locations.

OK.

"Where in Jamaica do your write from?"

St. Andrew, extension of what's generally called the capital, Kingston.

Clavos,

Thanks. I've wondered about that before.

Ruvy, just now I clicked submit without asking you the same re your mountain roost... ;-)

"Who's the victor in Georgia, Condor?" Dreadful Dr.

Is it over?

Ruvy,

What's your take on Arutz Sheva national news?

I was passed that source a while back and read it regularly.

Exactly.

what did you expect from bush and fox after all they are in bed togther

Angela,

I write from Ma'alé Levoná, a small village of about 100 families near Shiló, where the original mizbéaH or Altar to G-d was located in the days before the First Temple. The web-site is a Hebrew one that provides some nice photos.

Sorry, I couldn't get back to you earlier. I had to grab 40 winks before going on guard duty at the village gate....

I strongly suggest you go to my writer's page here. The last couple of articles are about this little dustup in the Caucasus that may have far far reaching implications.

Blessings from Liberated Samaria,
Ruvy

What's your take on Arutz Sheva national news?

Condor,

Arutz Sheva is the closest thing we have to an independent news source from within Israel. The Hebrew site toes the line of the National Religious Party in Israel, a disgusting bunch of hacks who hold things back terribly. The English site - the moneymaker - is far more independent and provides real news, as well as a point of view that is very different from that of the "Peoples Republic of Tel Aviv" which is the viewpoint of the government, and almost all the rest of the media. The NRP knows enough to keep its paws off the English site.

Let's put it this way. On Arutz Sheva, G-d is not a dirty word. The way we see it, G-d gifted us with this land and commanded us to live here. That covenant is far more important to us than any scrap of paper from the UN, League of Nations, or any other bunch of mere mortals. And that basic viewpoint is the background music behind all that you read there, or any radio show you listen to at Israel National Radio. But, for all that, you won't get preached to at Arutz Sheva. You'll get news and not Israeli government propaganda.

In short, they are good people who are the closest thing we have to the "good guys" in the news service.

I would like to know what history books you are referring to for your history of S. Ossetia and Abkhazia? For your information, they are both historically part of Georgia. South Ossetia is the Georgian region of Samochablo. It was inhabited by Ossetians in the 18/19th centuries when they moved south from their homeland in present day N. Ossetia in Russia. Abkhazia is also historically part of Georgia. It seems the problem is partially that your information comes from Russia Today - a government news project. I hope you are not teaching this poorly informed "history" to your students. You would do them a great disservice. And by the way, I am here on the ground and I must say that the western media is doing a surprising good job of reporting on events here with just slight inaccuracies. There is considerable evidence that Russia was preparing for this and provoked Georgia to take action. The self-proclaimed "president" of S. Ossetia even called for the evacuation of women and children a full two weeks before this began - and thousands left for Russia. Georgians are not monsters and don't fall to the trap of the Russian media and believe the trash they try to pass off as news. Be smarter than them and do some research.

Ale,
Under your logic the United States should be given back to its original inhabitants - the Native Americans. We both know that that is not going to happen. Obviously, over time things change in history. You said it correctly about South Ossetia, "It was inhabited by Ossetians in the 18/19th centuries when they moved south from their homeland in present day N. Ossetia in Russia". And these people have been subject to colonization ever since - first the Ottomans, then the Russians then the Soviets who incorporated them back into Georgia. They fought battles in the early 1990s to gain independence and the ceasefire gave it to them. The U.S. and Israel have armed Saakashvili to the tune of many millions of dollars in order for him to break the ceasefire and invade the sovereign territory of South Ossetia. I know the Georgian people are good people. I had a friend who lived there for the last year. But, Saakhasvili is no less a war criminal than George Bush. Both have invaded sovereign territories under false pretenses and are responsible for thousands of lives. The Georgian army got what it deserved. I am for people anywhere who want there freedom. What is good for Kosovo is also good for South Ossetia and Abkhazia.

Saakhasvili is no less a war criminal than George Bush.

I agree. Neither are war criminals.

Both have invaded sovereign territories under false pretenses and are responsible for thousands of lives.

S. Ossetia was NOT a sovereign territory and never had been. Just having a population of ethnic minorities doesn't make you a nation. Should we allow Mississippi to secede from the union because it has a majority African American population?

The Georgian army got what it deserved.

What is the punishment for rescuing people from being raped and murdered again?

Dave

Thank you Dave.

Ken, sorry, but your argument does not hold water. The territory now referred to as S. Ossetia (historic Samochablo) has always been a part of Georgia and has never been a sovereign territory, nor has Abkhazia. What do you say then to the over 400,000 Georgians who have been chased from their homes in those regions since 1990? They deserve to return to their homes and the land that belongs to them. Russia has provoked this conflict for years in an attempt to keep Georgia unstable.

"And these people have been subject to colonization ever since - first the Ottomans, then the Russians then the Soviets"

Georgia was colonized, what makes the S. Ossetian case special? Everyone who lived there, no matter their ethnic make-up suffered the same fate. I do not claim that the S. Ossetians don't belong there, their families moved there, but they moved to live in Georgia with Georgians.

To say that the Georgian military got what it deserves is not appropriate. Georgians have been coming under fire from S. Ossetian rebels for some time and the military was charged with protecting them. Would you not hope for protection if you were under attack?

I don't think having a friend who lived in Georgia for a year qualifies one to make such uninformed statements about a conflict. Again, it is fine to state one's opinion, but not to carry it off as fact and lead people to believe you speak the truth. Please take care with what you say.

To Dave and Ale,

Dave -
What is your definition then of a war criminal?

South Ossetia has had de facto sovereignty since 1991's ceasefire agreement, therefore Saakhasvili did invade a sovereign territory. In my view, under our constitution if Mississippi wanted to secede from the Union there is nothing constitutionally preventing them from doing so. Again, I am for anybody anywhere who wants their freedom. I realize that if you are a statist this is hard to stomach, however I believe people (corporately) should be free to choose their destiny just like you should individually be free to do the same thing - unless you hurt someone else in the process. You might call this political capitalism.

Your third point is subjective, probably formed by viewing in this case the biased reporting of the MSM. News reports I have seen indicated that the Russians arrived in South Ossetia to stop the carnage carried out by the Georgian army. Aljazeera as well as Russia Today reported this. My guess is that the truth is somewhere in between and have based my whole point in this matter on the fact that the Georgian army invaded a sovereign territory with the help of the U.S. and Israel and with the U.S. media being complicit in the attack - appalling!

Ale
First of all, "I don't think having a friend who lived in Georgia for a year qualifies one to make such uninformed statements about a conflict." I never claimed that. What I said was "I know the Georgian people are good people. "I had a friend who lived there for the last year." Please do not misquote me.

"What do you say then to the over 400,000 Georgians who have been chased from their homes in those regions since 1990? They deserve to return to their homes and the land that belongs to them."

Again, this logic would mandate that the Native Americans should be given back their land in the U.S. Things change over time in history. The Jews migrated to Palestine after WWI and eventually had enough numbers to take over and form the State of Israel. Many Palestinians were displaced. Do you favor giving the Palestinians their land back. By the way, wasn't Palestine settled by the ancesters of the Palestinians, the Philistines, first? Therefore, doesn't the territory really belong to the Palestinians not the Israelis under your logic?

Lastly, yes, Georgia has also suffered under colonization. Frankly, colonization must stop in all parts of the world if we are to realize world peace. I don't favor Georgia being colonized just like I don't favor South Ossetia and Abkhazia being colonized. Perhaps the U.N. could make itself useful by holding a real referendum in the two breakaway republics. The referendum would be binding on all parties with international oversight.

For the record, I do enter my blog entries as opinion pieces and they do represent the truth as I see it.

Thanks for the debate fellas, its been fun.

Kenn

Kenn,

I have two comments to make to you.

1. This story is not over. The events in Gruzia are just the opening chapter for a far wider conflict to erupt in a far more vicious way. You will see this in the coming months. Stop worrying about S. Ossetia and Gruzia and start paying attention to the Russian military and to the seeming flaccidness of the United States Armed Forces - starting with its Commander-in-Chief. Russia has already demonstrated its ability to cow all of Europe, both in and out of NATO.

2. Learn your history. Your attempts at allegory suffer from your ignorance of history.

The Jews migrated to Palestine after WWI and eventually had enough numbers to take over and form the State of Israel. Many Palestinians were displaced. Do you favor giving the Palestinians their land back. By the way, wasn't Palestine settled by the ancesters of the Palestinians, the Philistines, first? Therefore, doesn't the territory really belong to the Palestinians not the Israelis under your logic?

a. The people called "Palestinians" during the thirty year rule of the British Mandate were JEWS. The Arabs rejected the title and only after 1960 did they figure out to seize it and use it.

b. The country known as Judea or Coele Syria was renamed Syria Palestina by the Romans in an attempt to insult the Jews they persecuted. The Philistines, were a Greek-related people, refugees of a disaster in the Mediterranean and had nothing to do with Arabs at all. The Arabs are latecomers to the land, and their agricultural habits - allowing sheep and goats to eat every last bit of grass, thus wrecking the topsoil - turned this country into a wasteland. The Arab is truly the Father of the Desert.

I've also enjoyed the debate.

Have a good week - shavua tov from Liberated Samaria.

Ruvy,

With all do respect, when you say "learn your history", which history are you talking about? History is generally written by the winners and you have obviously read the winning side of Middle Eastern history.

"The people called "Palestinians" during the thirty year rule of the British Mandate were JEWS. The Arabs rejected the title and only after 1960 did they figure out to seize it and use it."

I must say I have never heard that one probably because growing up I learned American and Western history exclusively in school. I guess that is why the "JEWS" that lived in Palestine when Israel was founded fled the day after the founding - because they didn't want to be reunited with their Jewish brothers.

The whole point of my article was precisely your point in comment #1. This U.S. administration, Israel, and the MSM will be responsible if they are not already for starting the second Cold War. Russia is not going to give up the Balkans and Caucasians because of its paronoia with invasion. These are regions that are well within its sphere of influence. The U.S. should recognize this, and stop policing every little inch of the globe. The Bush Administration is bankrupting the future of our country.

Thanks for the dialogue.

Shalom,
Kenn