I think you make a mistake thinking that rejecting the proposed bailout is a sorta populist vengeance on WallStreet. It's not a matter of vengeance. WallStreet deserves to go down on basic principles: it's a drag on the economy and on the people of the USA.

WallStreet is a swollen, oversized monstrosity that has used it's bloated weight to browbeat the rest of the economy into submission. WallStreet is the biggest single abuser of the Frankenstein Kit that we call the corporation: a monster that can run about killing people and demolishing property, and is never held accountable.

Joanne,

the Righteous Bitch in me wants them all to go down in flames for taking our money and our trust and mismanaging the hell out it. I want to see scores of suicidal brokers jumping out of windows to their gory deaths.

You will see what you desire, Joanne. But all of the money will be going to flame, and will be worthless. All the manipulating and finagling, lying and self-deception in your economy (and everyone else's) will be weeded out. And it will not be fun when it happens, because so many of us have so many self-deceptions that hide from us the debts we really owe.

it's time for a real "change"

There will be a real change. But the change will not come the way Americans imagine it will....

So don't let the frustration of the material world get you down. The material world is going to become a whole lot more important. And if you are an agnostic, pray that you be given a sign that shows you what you need to do.

Joanne,

So don't let the frustration of the material world get you down. The material world is going to become a whole lot more important. And if you are an agnostic, pray that you be given a sign that shows you what you need to do.

The mistakes of a man having troubles with his bills occasionally show through.... This paragraph should have read:

So don't let the frustration of the material world get you down. The spiritual world is going to become a whole lot more important. And if you are an agnostic, pray that you be given a sign that shows you what you need to do.

Shabbat Shalom,
Ruvy

Bliffle: I sometimes totally agree with you. Wall Street SHOULD go down, not out of vengeance, but because they erred and that's the breaks.

Ruvy, my husband and I have seen this coming. We're prepared for the End of the World as we know it. Change, while scary, is good.

Go Bernie Sanders!


Did anyone else sign Sanders "letter to Paulson" over the last week?

Here is a video of Sanders presentation to the Senate on the bailout.

I'm posting this because I think some of you might appreciate his position and his action as I did. I like a guy who would have such a letter on his site for the public to sign and take it to the Senate.

Thanks for the link, Cindy. A guy like that makes me want to move to Vermont.

Joanne,

You say that you waded through 451 pages of legalese. Good for you. How many of our honorable members do you suppose have done that?

I am disgusted, but then that's nothing new.

Dan(Miller)

Dan, I've heard news reports that some of our Senators didn't even read it at all before they voted! How can you vote on something if you didn't read it?

Ruvy's right. It's the end of the world...

Dan, I've heard news reports that some of our Senators didn't even read it at all before they voted! How can you vote on something if you didn't read it?

Joanne, they do that routinely -- all of them.

Only one of the many reasons I call them clowns.

Clav,

Why are you so intent upon disparaging clowns? They, at least, are supposed to make us laugh.

Dan(Miller)

There was actually legislation a few years ago - that went nowhere, of course - to require them to actually read every bill they voted on.

Dave

Did it have a standardized testing clause to make sure they actually read it? Brilliant!

Joanne,

You ask (comment #8), How can you vote on something if you didn't read it? It's very simple. Permit me to explain. They have "yea" and "nay" buttons on their desks. Most of them understand those words, which after all contain only three letters each.

Dan(Miller)

Thanks for that update, Dan. At least I know now that they have the mental capacity of a toddler.

Joanne,

Here is a link to a video which I posted in a comment on Dave's article about the bailout. It suggests that our problems are neither new nor unique. Unfortunately, it is in a foreign language (English), but the thought does come through.

Dan(Miller)

This bailout reveals a shocking partisanship that runs through both parties and all the recent administrations: they will NOT help the powerless, but when the powerful snap their fingers all these government bozos snap to attention and open our wallets.

When mortgage foreclosures became evident many months ago the borrowers were simply stiffarmed. And then, for good measure, they were slandered as 'irresponsible' and 'imprudent' for signing up for mortgages!

bliffle,

While I certainly agree with you that the borrowers are not the principal villains (at least most of them-the flippers are another kettle of fish-not villains, but not innocent victims, either) in this whole debacle, they nevertheless DO bear some responsibility(the "innocent" ones) for being imprudent and even stupid.

I think it disingenuous of you to attempt to place all the responsibility for this mess only on the lenders and Wall Street.

I'm sure you would never have succumbed to the siren songs of the lenders, nor would I; nor, I dare say, would the majority of commenters on these threads.

Not only the borrowers, but the government also, bear a lot of the blame.

Sorry, I hit "publish" too quickly.

This sentence should have read:

"I think it disingenuous of you to attempt to place all the responsibility for this mess only on the government, the lenders and Wall Street."

Just imagine the flights of fancy that the theory of borrower malevolence and Wall Street victimization requires conservatives to take: All these no-account folks, you see, got together and forced investment banks to engineer subprime mortgages into highly leveraged securities. Then they tricked all manner of hedge funds and pension funds and financial institutions into buying these lousy products. Just for good measure, these struggling homeowners then persuaded bond-rating agencies to misrepresent the risk associated with these securities.

The GOP Blames the Victim
Capitalism sure is fragile if subprime borrowers can ruin it.

Irresponsible lending and greed.

If I lend my car to my 15 year old nephew without a license and he drives it over a cliff I can hardly blame him.

Where Credit Is Due: A Timeline of the Mortgage Crisis

The subprime crisis has been a long time in the making.

The thing is, while the bubble was still expanding, Wall St made a lot money, both for itself and for average citizens who own stock-based 401(k)'s. Both in the recent housing bubble and in the earlier dot-com bubble.

It's easy to call them villains now, but not very many of us were complaining while our balances went up.

A certain amount of risk-taking is necessary for investors to function and remain profitable. Someone has to decide where to draw the line. Alan Greenspan, for example, refused to believe there could actually be a housing bubble. Some people think he's a genius. Oh well.

Borrowers simply have no power. They cannot alter one line in most offers from banks. Usually the numbers only are negotiable, but the word terms are immutable.

I'll even defend the much scorned 'flippers'. The ones I know of were small-capital citizens who saw a chance to make a small arbitrage profit by buying a property, improving it, then reselling. They went in where sellers couldn't afford needed repairs and modernizations, or were unwilling to take on the investment risk and the costs and hazards of employing a contractor. Most of the flippers risked a lot for small profits.

It's the lenders who call the shots.

Contract of adhesion.

If I lend my car to my 15 year old nephew without a license and he drives it over a cliff I can hardly blame him.

Wow, how amazingly patronizing - and typical of the left - to compare adult borrowers who are mostly minorities to an irresponsible child.

And that's right at the heart of this aspect of the problem. They're adults. They shouldn't get handouts. If they want a house they should work and earn and qualify for one. Rental properties are perfectly adequate housing and nothing to be ashamed of or considered a mark of oppression.

Most societies understand this. We should come to grips with it. Not everyone has to be a homeowner.

Dave

I see you aren't getting the point Dave. Let's try another.

Say I lend my car to someone I know is a raging alcoholic, known to have driven cars off cliffs in the past?

What if I lend it to someone who I know likes to drag race?

Are you getting the point at all or is it too subtle?

Cindy, the point ISN'T subtle, that's just it.

You (as spokesperson for the left) think that the poor and minorities are irresponsible like drunks and reckless drivers and children. Yet you think that the government should hand them a bottle or the keys to a car and let them destroy themselves because it makes you feel better to patronize them in that way.

Not subtle at all. Just remarkably stupid.

Dave

The subprime crisis has been a long time in the making.

And both parties new about it. There is no why they couldn't of. They were just hoping for the best year after year. Now that the shit has hit the fan, everone is trying to blame the other.

bliff,

I'll even defend the much scorned 'flippers'. The ones I know of were small-capital citizens who saw a chance to make a small arbitrage profit by buying a property, improving it, then reselling.

Not down here they weren't. They were (and are) pure speculators, who were banking (no pun intended) on the rapidly rising prices of new condos coming on line in this market during the heyday of the bubble.

Most were well heeled, sophisticated buyers who were in it strictly for the money, and were taking full advantage of the greed of the lenders.

Now, the same people are taking advantage of the desperation of the developers, many of whom are stuck with entire buildings that are vacant. The speculators (flippers) are striking so-called "wholesale" deals, buying a number of units at a time from developers at fire sale prices, then turning them around and re-selling.

The market here is unusual in that most retail buyers are foreigners, principally from Latin America, usually rich people looking for an investment in which to park their dinero for a spell.

Same thing with the yacht business these days; the American buyers have thinned out considerably, but have been replaced by the foreigners, in particular Russians and Eastern Europeans. The smaller (less than $500K) boats have pretty much dried up, but the larger yachts are still selling well, only the clients have changed.

We've got some of both kinds of flippers here in Texas, and I don't look terribly negatively on either of them, or on anyone who sees an opportunity and is willing to risk their capital, their credit and their hard work to make a profit from it. They are as deserving of a bailout as someone who knew they couldn't really qualify for a home loan under normal terms, but took one under ridiculous terms just because it was available.

Dave

RE# 26

Dave,

Apparently, it was too subtle. As this isn't it.

You (as spokesperson for the left) think that the poor and minorities are irresponsible like drunks and reckless drivers and children.

The point is if you are engaged in the business of lending or the government of lending AND your competence and decisions will place risk on "nonparties" (i.e. the general public via the economy),particularly where you can bring down a whole fucking system, then I would expect that you would know who the hell you're making loans to!

So, government (legislators/judiciary), lenders, the financial system that allowed the risk to be passed on, the professionals who passed on the risk--they are 100% to blame.

It shouldn't matter if criminals were trying to get loans. It's okay to give them to them?

It's okay to not lock the bank doors and then claim criminals stole everything?

If you don't know what you're doing then you certainly shouldn't be in a business doing it. Particularly a business that ultimately puts the entire economy at risk.

"So, government (legislators/judiciary), lenders, the financial system that allowed the risk to be passed on, the professionals who passed on the risk--they are 100% to blame."


Sooo...Cindy, quick question for ya...

who're you voting for in your local congressional races, and How did they VOTE on the bailout? How did they vote on measures to try and re-impose (or impose) regulations relating to this situation over the last eight years?

If there's no price to be paid for unprofessional oversight, and no price to be paid for enabling the crooks, then guess...how much oversight, how much professionalism from the branch of government responsible for deciding these issues, is there actually going to be?

They are as deserving of a bailout as someone who knew they couldn't really qualify for a home loan under normal terms, but took one under ridiculous terms just because it was available.

I disagree. The people who knew full well the risks they were taking should have to accept those risks and their consequences.

Cannon,

My Congressman doesn't believe in evolution. I knock on doors during his elections to help inform people. So, I talk to a lot of people.

My county consistently re-elects this moron. It's the typical voter mentality in my county to say, "I'm a Republican." They have no idea who their Congressman is (they can't remember his name). They just KNOW they're voting Republican.

The man I'm voting for isn't in Congress.

I presume he voted in favour of the bailout?